Tuesday, June 07, 2005

Some recent items

The Globe and Mail provide a depressing poll : 23% of Canadians believe Grewal. (Sigh)

Update. Lesson: read the whole story before you post. The question was
Decima told respondents: “The Liberals say that Mr. Grewal approached them and asked for an appointment. Mr. Grewal says it was the other way around." Pollsters then asked the question: “Whom do you believe more?”
One can believe that Liberals made the first approach without being moonbat looney.

Larry Zolf weighs in here: the tapes have seriously damaged the conservatives.

I admire loyalty, I really do. And mixed metaphors. Riding Offical Defends Grewal:
"And when you shine a light under a rock, I guess sometimes you get burned."
Ibbitson discusses how we might have another confidence vote soon, but as an aside makes an important point about the Grewal episode:
There is, on its face, reasonable grounds for concern that someone might have altered the tapes to falsely incriminate Mr. Dosanjh, in particular. Such an act, if it occurred, is far more serious than anything revealed on the tape. Falsifying a tape recording, and then releasing it to the public in an effort to discredit an individual, could be an act of fraud, or obstruction of justice.


Anonymous D. C. Macdonald said...

Can't say I'm surprised by that number, there is after all around thirty percent of voters that voted Conservative last election. Of course many of them would give the benefit of the doubt to their man. The real test will be after a few weeks longer, and the questions regarding alterations/editing and done by whom are settled out a bit more clearly. If anything, the fact they can't even get that high at the outset of the releases does not bode well for the CPC and Grewal on this matter.

I still am having trouble feeling like I'm not down a rabbit hole regarding the way the CPC has handled this affair from the outset. The more their ineptitude has become apparent, the harder I am finding it to maintain my sense of reality. I had serious issues with the CPC from it's founding, but I always thought their leadership had at least some political savvy. This whole affair though has surprised me in just how incompetent the CPC leadership truly is. If this bunch were to form a government, especially a majority, the damage they would have done to this country across the board would have made the Mulroney years seem fun by comparison.

I have to wonder how the Canadian public will respond to being told that any alterations made don't matter because the originals are untampered with. That it is acceptable for the CPC to release altered recordings as proof of Liberal perfidy and claim they are the whole and complete recordings. That there is no reason to have any concerns whether such alterations would change any meanings. I am having a hard time understanding how those that are making such claims live in the same world as the rest of us. It is almost like they, despite all evidence to the contrary, still expect Canadians to see things in the harsh worst possible light regarding anything Liberals. That anything that "proves" in their perceptions how evil the Liberals truly are will automatically be seen by others the same way, that what matters is that the "proof" is obtained, and not the way by which it was obtained, and in this case presented.

I don't think most of the Conservatives online truly understand the damages Grewal has done and is continuing to do to the CPC credibility generally, and on corruption issues specifically. This was entirely predictable given the way Harper and company dealt with this from the first public mention of it. Indeed, more than a couple of people online cautioned the online conservatives about jumping to conclusions about how this would play out, but no one listened to good advice. I wonder if now so many of them have to defend it because they already stuck their necks out and refuse to accept they acted prematurely.

11:34 PM  
Blogger No Yards said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11:41 PM  
Blogger buckets said...

No Yards. I've deleted you and put you in your own thread.

DCM. I can't say I disagree completely with what you've said. But part of me is attracted to the notion that the best antidote for what ails the conservatives is power. The grown-ups will have to take charge. But thankfully we won't have to investigate that too soon. (BTW, have you thought about starting your own blog? It's not very complicated. This is my first and I've been at it only a few weeks.

11:58 PM  
Blogger Maritime Liberal said...

Ibbitson makes an interesting point. The rumour I heard was that Grewal was trying to ship the complete unedited tapes to Conservative Party HQ in Ottawa asap while still remaining in Vancouver. Good this be because someone in Harper's or Norquay's office altered parts of the others to make Grewal look bad?

I find the idea a tad doubtful, though if the Tories knew they would look bad and simply wanted to create a convinient scapegoat this is possible...though an unusual approach.

Let's see what happens today. Nothing more seems to surprise me anymore. Actually not true, if you heard the National last night, CBC reported that there are some serious questions about Grewal's business investments that helped him eventually get citizenship. I posted some of it on my blog and have been looking for the transcripts from the National. Unfortunately they don't see to provide recent ones, only ones that are about 5 years old. Regardless, it is another blow to Grewal's credibility and certainly something that raised my eyebrows.

Apparently, that same story popped up briefly in 1993. I have been searching for some news stories about that to help explain this new development.

7:39 AM  
Blogger nitangae said...

I have a number of comments. First of all, I don't think that the 23% who think Grewal is telling the truth are all conservatives. Even the conservatives I meet are mostly smarter than that. I expect it is substantially non-voters, with a few death or glory partisans (in which category one includes, I expect, many conservative bloggers.) Also, a big chunk of Quebecois, who have good reason to distrust the Liberals right now. From the article it was clear that the pole was broken down according to region, as they distinguished BC, but no mention was made of Quebec. Yet it was the Bloc that lead the charge on this issue! Rather badly handled, I must say.

I also don't think that 23% is a big number. 25% of people can be made to believe anything. Also, to make a rather un-expert comment, are perhaps the people who answer poles generally rather angry people who feel disenfranchised, and therefore more likely to have a negative opinion? I read something like that once. So, 23% is actually rather low. Probably about 23% of people poled would say that Conservatives are planning to bind us in chains and send us all to work in the salt-mines.

Speaking of the investments leading up to immigration, I suggest that people don't make too much of that, as the old immigration-through investment-system was deeply and utterly corrupt. Upon investigation, I expect, one would find that most of the investments made by good upstanding immigrants also had problems. One would also find plenty of cases of people trying to invest honestly who were being scammed.

We might, in other words, produce more sympathy for Grewal with this tack.

As for conservative bloggers having little connection with reality, I expect that is part of the same problem affecting the CPC. They think they are competing in the American political system. They think that pretending to be liberals who are against same-sex marriage will play well come Election Day. While I am in favour of same-sex marriage, I am not, I think, intolerant towards people who are opposed to it. Nevertheless, to read a Byfield in the Western Standard referring to Paul Martin as “the defender of the sodomites” goes beyond what I can endure. Yet it is this constituency that Harper is betting on, by making same-sex marriage his main standard (I expect even most people who oppose it would rather it not be the main issue of the Conservative Party).

11:44 AM  
Blogger buckets said...

Welcome , nitangae. Good points all. On the 23% what is important here is the question. Even given all of the evidence, it's not impossible that the Liberals did initiate contact: put out feelers towards Conservatives whom they knew or suspected were poachable. So on that question, 23% is not surprising.

On the immigration story, I agree in part. It's a little unfair for anyone to have everything they've done probed and reprobed.

On the Conservative strategy here. You could be right. Perhaps they are trying to replicate the successful Republican strategy of appealing to a core constituency to increase their turn out. That worked in part because there are only two parties--left and right. If one side can increase their turn out, they win, even if they alienate the undecided. Here, however, there are three parties, which makes the dynamic a little different. (It's an idea that is well worth exploring.)

12:04 PM  

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