Rules of evidence
I've long considered Andrew Coyne is one of the country's best columnists: at his best, he is intelligent and vigorous, ideologically clear without being unduely partisan. His blog is less impressive--but that is natural enough. The best material is saved for the paying customers--and rightly so. In his recent blog post on the Grewal affair, he's disappointed.
He begins with the report of Ethics Commissioner Shapiro on the Grewal affair, which says this:
Mr. Dosanjh testified that Mr. Grewal was extremely excited about the crossing of the floor of Belinda Stronach, that morning, and how it was now easy for him to be appointed to Cabinet. However, Mr. Grewal’s account was that Mr. Dosanjh suggested a Cabinet position or diplomatic post for him and a Senate seat for his wife...and then compares this to reports of how the Belinda deal was negotiated.
Before he got to that comparison, however, he should have stopped. There are rules of evidence. One of them is ad fontem--'to the source'. Why rely on Shapiro's report of Grewal's account of his discussion with Dosanjh, when we have a tape of that discussion? The part of the discussion in question--while Dosanjh and Grewal waited for Murphy to join them--is only eight minutes long. Who is right? Grewal, who claimed that Dosanjh offered him a Cabinet seat, a diplomatic post, and a senate seat? Or Dosanjh, who claimed that Grewal claimed that Belinda's defection made appointing him to Cabinet easy? Let's see.
Here is a transcript and translation of the relevant sections. (Again, my thanks to Sohn, Raj, and Mendeep for their help with the Punjabi.) Yellow, as is my regular procedure, marks text that is absent from Grewal's May 31st transcript, but included in the one released June 5th, and red marks places where my text corrects his (please note that the colouring of the text may be incomplete--some minor differences may be unmarked.) The soundfiles have been archived here, where you can download them and double check my work. (The June 5th transcript goes with the June 2nd tape.)
00:00-00:33 -- (Dead Air)There is nowhere in the above exchange where (as Grewal stated) "Mr. Dosanjh suggested a Cabinet position or diplomatic post for [Grewal] and a Senate seat for his wife".
GG (00:33) Hello, how are you? Hello, how are you? UD Fine, and yourself? Haal Chaal theek hai? Fine, and yourself? You are fine? GG Haal chaal te theek hai I am fine UD Pher… So… GG (00:38) Pher taan theek hai, tuhaanu taan…. So, it is fine. You… UD I didn’t know that last night I didn’t know that last night GG Nahin, Nahin.. No, No… UD Honestly, I did not know … Honestly, I did not know … GG Achcha? Last night tusi indicate kar rahe si… Is it? Last night you indicated … UD I said that there are people coming, but I … I'd been told that somebody was, but I did not know who it was. I said that there are people coming, but I … I'd been told that somebody was, but I did not know who it was. GG Lagda hai… ik-adha hor vee hona hai koi It seems there may be another one or two persons as well) UD Newfoundland (?) vaale jehre bande hai Those people from Newfoundland GG untha lai okah ho jaana kanu vote puni or nay puni for them it is going to be difficult to decide who to vote for or not UD (1:23) chah da cup piyoge? Will you have a cup of tea? GG Nahin, nahin, Aapaan chheti kariye, tusi jaana honai No, no. Let’s hurry up, probably you have to go… UD Sure? Tim ne aaune.. Sure? Tim has to come… GG koi nahin, aa jaande thodi der vich Doesn’t matter, he will come soon UD Question Period taan do vaje hai ajj Question Period is at 2 o’clock today GG Achcha, te tiyari nahin karni hundi? OK, but don’t you have to prepare? UD (unclear) (unclear) GG Main kiha, shayad note karna painda hovey I thought, maybe you have to make notes… UD Koi nahin, panj-ku minute lagde hai, car vich hee tiyari kar layee dee hai (Pause) (1:50) I … I think, ihde naal tuhade layee easy ho gaya hai… It’s OK, it takes about 5 minutes, I prepare in the car itself. (Pause) I … I think it [i.e., Stronach's defection] has made the things easier for you… GG Haan, ih taan hai Yes, that’s true… UD ihi tusi chahune ho and that’s want you want GG Ih taan hai. Naale do galaan clear ho gayeeyan hun. Ik taan easy ho gaye, dooja, ih hai ki kal nu kujh ih na kahen ki, baad vich karange kujh. hosakdi hai (2:08) right away, ihde layee. That is true, Moreover, two things have become clear. Firstly, it has become easier. Secondly, they shouldn’t say that they'll do something later. It can happen right away, for her. UD (2:11) Cabinet right away hosakdi hai Cabinet can be done right away GG Uh uh Yes UD (2:15) Cabinet right away hosakdi hai Cabinet can be done right away GG Uhu, (2:18) right away ho sadki hai, kyonki vacancy kaafi lambe arsey to chali aa rahi hai, want the Parliament to work, (2:21) shortage hai members di Yes, it can be done right away, since the vacancy has been there for a long time, want the Parliament to work, there is shortage of members
UD Actually, you don’t want to lose the advantage. If you do it right away, you lose the advantage of numbers. Those are issues … Actually, you don’t want to lose the advantage. If you do it right away, you lose the advantage of numbers. Those are issues ….
GG Anyway, let’s talk UD (2:37) I spoke to the Prime Minister and he said he is going to Regina right now, and he will be happy to talk to you over the phone tonight, or in person, if you want to move GG Theek (‘right’) UD (3:01) I think you should have a thorough conversation with Tim. GG OK UD Because Tim is the Chief of Staff, it is like talking to the Prime Minister. GG Right
UD Uh jehri right away vali gal hai na, going into cabinet right away is difficult because we don’t want to lose numbers. (3:20) And as far as “right away” is concerned, going into cabinet right away is difficult because we don’t want to lose numbers GG (pause) I understand, dooje pasiyon, … senate* (NOT CLEAR) vakensiyan vee hagiyan ne kujh… I understand, on the other hand, (in) senate* (NOT CLEAR) there are some vacancies… UD Ikko hai, B.C. vich There is only one, in B.C. GG Par hor vee hai ne, bhariyan te nahin saariyan There are more, all have not been filled yet UD chhe sat six –seven GG (UNCLEAR) (UNCLEAR) UD (UNCLEAR) (UNCLEAR) UD Senate vich tan majority bahut hai There is a big majority in the Senate GG Haan Yes GG (3:42) Hun numbering jehri hai uh bahut crucial ho gayee hai kaafi, 151-152 Now numbers have become very crucial, 151-152 UD (3'56) I think, you should, actually, thoda long term naal socho (3'56) I think, you should, actually, think long term GG Hu, Hu Yes, yes UD Obviously, you would only do if it is the right thing for you. It is always the right thing for us. Obviously, you would only do if it is the right thing for you. It is always the right thing for us. GG Haanji, haanji, personally taan… Yes, yes. Personally, .. UD But you will do the right thing (inaudible). I’ll push as far as I can. At the end I don’t control those things But you will do the right thing (inaudible). I’ll push as far as I can. At the end I don’t control those things GG Haanji Yes UD That why it is important for you to meet him, after the Prime Minister. He just now told me that he will be happy to talk to you, after the discussion, if everything is alright. If it appears that there is some understanding. That why it is important for you to meet him, after the Prime Minister. He just now told me that he will be happy to talk to you, after the discussion, if everything is alright. If it appears that there is some understanding. UD Je na understanding hove ta pher gal karan di lod hee koi nahin If there is no understanding there is no use talking to him GG Ihde naal, Nina naal ih effect paina hai …. (inaudible) , Saade nal ih effect paina haiki (4'48) ethnic minority de vich…(inaudible) She, Nina, will have the effect that … (inaudible). We will have the effect, that in the (4'48) ethnic minority … (inaudible)
UD That’s right. It is easier for you to use the same kind of language. This is the time to keep the country together, you can’t line up with the Bloc. You go out on a higher principle. In a sense people might say … (NOT CLEAR). That is not such a bad thing for you. Like one of your former leaders. She was a leader in your party and she is a senior leader. GG She was a leadership candidate, yes. UD She was one of the leaders in the party
UD Vaise taa, it is not an easy thing. I wouldn’t. You really have to think. Main aap sochda haan, Waheguru karega taa it might be possible. Nobody will make you totally blunt promise. That is not done is politics usually. (NOT CLEAR). You might be better off for yourself, about asking all you are looking for is for your wife rather than for you, because you will have a pension or something, you can go right away… You can ask for both, but that might be the only thing that might be feasible. I haven’t talked to them, that’s just my way of thinking. Main tuhade naal gal kar riha haan, tusi kidaan karna hai vekh lao. I think you should tell Tim what you have in mind. Edaan nahin kadey vee hunda ki mainu aah cheez chahidi hai taan karoon. Then that’s not good for you. I know that you might not be ready to do it right now you certainly be looking for a significant appointment for her, not for you. How old are you now? In fact, it is not an easy thing. I wouldn’t. You really have to think. My own thinking is that, if the God wishes, it might be possible. Nobody will make you totally blunt promise. That is not done is politics usually. (NOT CLEAR). You might be better off for yourself, about asking all you are looking for is for your wife rather than for you, because you will have a pension or something, you can go right away… You can ask for both, but that might be the only thing that might be feasible. I haven’t talked to them, that’s just my way of thinking. I am just telling you, you decide what to do. I think you should tell Tim what you have in mind. It never works like this that you give me such and such thing and I’ll do it. Then that’s not good for you. I know that you might not be ready to do it right now you certainly be looking for a significant appointment for her, not for you. How old are you now? AA 47 47 BB te tuhadi pension? And your pension? AA Athth saalan ‘ch In 8 years BB Athth saalan lai? For 8 years? AA Athth saalan tak… 55 lug jange After 8 years… I will be 55.
The point? Coyne compares two negotiations. He knows next to nothing about either. But he could know more about the one, if he wanted to.
Labels: Gurmant Grewal, Nina Grewal
posted by buckets at 1/31/2006 10:23:00 PM
1 Comments:
For me Andrew Coyne discredited himself severely with the degree of assumptions he was making in the Grewal affair before he had to go dark from going too far out on that limb. I also find this assumption that many CPC supporters and Conservative commenters make that they know what went on regarding Belinda's deal with the Liberals/Pm when it is not something they would have any access to such information. There is a lot of assuming of equivalence here that really bothers me, it did then and still does to this day. Then again, I have been really pissed about this Grewal fraud from the outset and refuse to let it die because I know it to be unprecedented in nature to any prior scandal in our history. Money scandals, scandals regarding improper use of influence/power, those are ones we see time and again.
Making false specific criminal allegations and making up evidence to support it and then running a three week campaign against a government and PM and then trying to pretend the fraud never happened once it is exposed is something entirely unheard of in our political history. It is NOT a tool/tactic I ever want to see become considered acceptable in this country, which is one reason why I harp on it all the time. The other is that this was the worst scandal in the CPC's short history and how the party and leadership dealt with it sets the tone in what to expect in other inevitable CPC scandals down the road.
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